Then circumstances arise in which I question the two being compatible. For instance, I want My friends to tell Me like it is. However, while I want My submissive to be able to be open, I expect him/her to remain in her/his place. I expect a level of subservience. After all, she/he is in service to Me. And perhaps, for example, sharing personal info (and other things friends share) is just inappropriate to the D/s relationship.
In your experience, has there been a line drawn? Where?
I value My submissive’s opinions, yet I cannot help but think: yes, but there MUST be boundaries and they may not be as conducive as One may think. I desire to maintain absolute control after all.
This is tricky.
It’s a big question in My mind and I hope to bring in a dialogue about this. I am certain, after all, it has arisen in the minds of others as well.
What do you think? Can a Master and slave truly be friends and if so, where is the line drawn in your relationship (s)?
- I’m the kind of person that can’t just pick up a flogger and start beating slave23 and find that fulfilling. I want to know the person before there is any type of play or … well, anything. I think that if you become a potential partner’s friend first then you get to know the real him as he can’t be ‘on his best behavior’ all the time – lol. It also helps me to understand how he deals with disappointment, happiness, excitement, etc. This knowledge, I feel, would make me better able to read him should the relationship evolve into a D/s one.
This all being said, I’ve been told by a few men that this doesn’t work for them. The reason they gave is that they categorize women immediately into what they perceive the relationship to be. ie: a woman is a potential Dominant partner or is a friend but can’t be both.
Sad as this scenario sounds it does seem to fit the reactions I’ve gotten from potential partners. One potential man, who I’d had coffee with a few times but was just in the process of getting to know and had by no means made up my mind about him, asked for my help in impressing another Dominant as we “… were becoming friends and thus wouldn’t be getting into D/s”.
As to the question of “Can a Master and slave truly be friends…”? I really hope so – lol. I think that the boundaries lie in 1) how the information is given, and 2) if the information is sought. By this I mean if I ask for his opinion and he gives me one that I don’t like … well, I asked for it. However, if that same opinion is given in a disrespectful tone or is not solicited then that might be a problem.
Best of luck to the OP and I look forward to reading everyone else’s replies.
- I have been a slave a number of times, and have sometimes found myself wishing for ‘friendship’ or more with Mistresses. it is a difficult thing to become friends with a Lady once you are already Her slave. on the other hand, although it has not happened to me (yet), i think that being friends first would make the Mistress/slave relationship all the more fun/enjoyable/(insert what You will). when you are playing with a friend (even a friend of relatively short standing) you are with someone you like and trust, and know! – You are playing with someone with whom you are immediately comfortable. i think it would be an easy transmutation, and it is one i hope for with a current friend.
- To me, friendship is an important part of having a Ds relationship. One of the things I screen for, actually, is the ability to have an interesting conversation on a non-kinky topic with the person I am considering for a committed Ds position.
It helps me to have distinctions between “friends time” and “service time.” If you are not willing to spend time as friends, then probably a friend-and-submissive role is not going to work as well.
- I’ve always felt that my submission is more “organic” when I have chemistry with a Domme, but I’ve been questioning that lately. I fear that I often get too familiar with a Domme in that I do see them in more of a friends capacity. I thenhave trouble disassociating that feeling with them, and being able to really serve them. It kind of starts to feel like play at that point. (Not that that’s a bad thing) It feels kind of like falling into the “friend zone” while trying to date someone.
- I think it is a fine line, a balance, a dance.
I live as a whole woman and have invested this being/sharing with My submissive and I like the flow and levels of intimacy.
Yet at times, I feel a bit nostalgic for times it was more clear cut.
Sometimes I do feel boundaries are crossed and I handle them when they are, but I wonder if being friends doesn’t compromise something beautiful in D/s, something seemingly more concrete: structure.
Then I consider that intimacy is what gels a really hot, fiery, sensual voyaging and takes it to the next level. I very much enjoy this with My sensual submissive. Our bond is greater because of O/our connection.
Sometimes I feel I owe him more structure (and at times I desire as well)…yes, the fanstasy is so hot to be at the very top looking down (from My perspective as well as from My submissive’s desire to be at My feet).
D/s feels like a tight rope at times. Do you guys feel that way?
Inevitably, I think it boils down to this: life is messy.
It takes conscious effort and awareness to navigate its waters.
I’m feeling on these matters until I am more at ease and then I will decide how to move through it instictively.
I, and many of U/us enjoy life as a dance, also, life as being transformative.
These are things I ‘feel’ on in this matter.
I appreciate each and every one of your feedback and look forward to continuing the dialogue.
- At root, I think you assume that there must be a play-off – that the more friendship between D and s, the less of a D/s dynamic there will be (and vice versa). I don’t see why this need be the case. In many D/s partnerships the two elements of friendship and D/s dynamic are mutually beneficial. The more of one you create, the more of the other you create, too. For me, personally, the contrast is not only bearable, it’s wonderful. To be the greatest of friends one minute, then at the next(at a click of the fingers – choose your signal, or even formal ritual) absolute Mistress and slave – would be my ideal kind of relationship.
In that kind of partnership, you turn the worry about ‘fine line between aloofness and friendship’ into a daily pleasure – the twin pleasures of daily affirming the intimacy of the partnership (by getting to know each other better and better), but also (by means of those signals and rituals), ‘re-discovering’ your D and s roles.
Isn’t it possible to see a D/s relationship this way?
- Yes I do believe you absolutely can be friends, just as sometimes people can have romantic relationships with their subs. In order to have a full and well rounded long term relationship I think there has to be a healthy does of friendship in order to maintain it. No one feels Domme or sub 24 hours out of the day, and it is a real pleasure when you have other things to share with your sub besides D/s. Being able to converse, laugh, and support each other in a friendly way makes both parties feel much more cared about and secure, which in my mind, creates a great enviornment for a deeper and stronger D/s relationship.
- I’m sorry if you felt that I was putting words into your mouth.
“And perhaps, for example, sharing personal info (and other things friends share) is just inappropriate to the D/s relationship.”
. . . . these are the lines that suggested to me that you might consider a certain distance to be required in a D/s relationship. here was nothing accusatory in what I was saying. Also, I understand that you haven’t formed any conclusions as yet.
However, all of us – myself included – are prone to coming to conclusions as a result of taking certain things for granted. One of those sorts of conclusions I see to be very common in the D/s community. This is the assumption that aloofness/distance/non-sharing of personal info just must be required in order to maintain a D/s dynamic. Subs are just as prone to this assumption as Dommes. They don’t accept that the ‘dance’ – as you put it (a good term, IMO) isn’t compromised by this closness and intimacy between D and s. Still less so do they believe that that dance is actually given its energy by means of such intimacy.
One reason why this intimacy helps is precisely because of the contrast. You click your fingers, it’s gone. To my mind, both partners feel the D/s dynamic all the more because that closeness has been deliberately ‘switched off’. The tension between the two states isn’t a disadvantage – it’s the opposite, it’s the source of the buzz.
Or so I see it. But, like you, I haven’t come to a conclusion either. Just my thoughts on it all.
- I think the term friend is what really needs to be fleshed out because my friends that i am closest with are people that i would never want to play with the simple fact is that someone who is a friend is generally for me not someone i am sexually attracted to and for me i need a srexual attraction to the person i am domming… but that is just me… and i think partnership which includes friendship is different than a platonic friend so how are we defining friend?
- There are different kinds of friends and different gradations within relationships.
Another case in point is SLAVE vs just play.
My slave has been fulltime and it’s intense work to say the least for both of U/us.
There is the distinction between playtime and full on slavery perhaps.
Still, I think the various input is helpful ingight into this sbig puzzle of D/s life.
A friend told Me that when asked her secrets for having lived a fulfilling life, a woman once said something equivalant to: “Life is a rollercoaster for Me, for some it’s a merrigoround. I’ll take all the ups and downs, twists and turns.”
I think it is indeed a dance and W/we learn as W/we go. Sometimes W/we learn that beside and inside the friendship of D/s, there are boundaries that must be in place, ones that make sense, as with any relationship.
It is a process of discovery, fluid, flawed and growing.
I think My question revolves more around established boundaries than friendship in general.
Again, there are different kinds and levels of trust in friendships. I think this is important in My quest.
I also agree with Fern, it depends on which side of the equation you want to be on, the illusion or a more fluid holistic version of Master/slave.
- Aren’t we all just people to begin with??
I don’t want to have people in my life that don’t consider me as a friend. Why wouldn’t they still be able to respect me (and me them) in our different roles?
Are there some subs I have different degrees of feelings for? Absolutley. Even if they are paying for my services, I can still consider them to be friends. I care for my friends and visa versa. I don’t have room for people that don’t care about me. I also wish for them to have the same self respect for themselves.
I meant that it is really easy to move into the ‘friends only’ zone, depending how it is approached, and of course depending on the kind of relationshp you are looking for. Mine are romantic relationships, and I make no distinction here between developing D/s or vanilla relationships.
If I meet a potential partner, sparks have to be flying left right and centre, and even if I don’t act on them immediately, the boy will know clearly that he is not moving into a ‘just friends’ territory. For me, those sparks tend to have a D/s flavour to them, so while I may take the time to get to know him well, it is still an intensely flirty sexy interaction with a D/s flavour because I will be already hungry for him.
So I guess I make a distinction between ‘friends first’ and ‘OMFG you are so hot, but I am not going to rip your clothes off right now because I want to get to know you first’. The former is the kiss of death for me because my D/s relationships are romantic ones. The latter works just fine.
It depends of course on the kind of relationship you are seeking… the above is only relevant for romantic relationships, however if HE is seeking a romantic relationship and you are seeking service, I can see that disconnect happening where for him ‘friends’ kills it, and for you it is a firm basis.
- Strangely enough, I am not interested in any type of relationship where there isn’t some kind of spark. That being said, there are many people who I find attractive, that have that spark, who are totally inappropriate for what I’m looking for. A good example is a man (who has since become a good friend) who is a Dominant. We both agree that we found each other hot but also agreed that neither of us would submit to each other. We chose to maintain a friendship rather than writing each other off as ‘non-relationship’ material.
As well, I’ve met a wonderful submissive man who, on the surface seems to be everything I’m looking for. There is definitely a spark and this does make the maintenance of our platonic friendship a bit hard sometimes. The reason it hasn’t progressed to a D/s relationship is that he is married and not informing his wife and I won’t be a party to this deception.
Overall I’m seeking a D/s relationship. This does not mean romantic and it does not mean conventionally sexual. It means the basis of that relationship is a power dynamic. That all being said, I am not willing to enter into this relationship with just anyone. There has to be an understanding of roles, I have to genuinely like the person, and there has to be that spark. The ‘spark’ is pretty obvious on first meeting, but the genuinely liking someone does take a bit of time. Finally, the establishment of roles comes much to the end for me as I don’t think you can really get to know someone if they (and you) are trying to maintain a power dynamic.
There seems to be this misconception that if a woman is not going to ‘fuck’ her submissive or does not want to ‘fall in love’ with him, that she is seeking a sterile, cold, servitude based relationship. This is not the case. I fully expect that some kind of sex (though not with me) will be a part of any D/s relationship. I also expect that this relationship will be filled with warmth, affection, and non-romantic love. There will be service but there will also be play, work, relaxation, shared interests, common goals, etc.
- I think it depends heavily on the type of relationship you want to have. If you are 24/7 D/s..?? Only play/scene together…?? Is it sexual or not..??
For me, I can not play with someone I am not in a relationship with. A relationship for me means a strong vanilla foundation, so yes… for me, I need there to be a friendship.
Friends will sometimes tell you things you might not want to hear, but it’s important for those things to be said/heard. I would rather know there’s an issue that needs to be dealt with than have it go unsaid and unresolved with the potential to just grow and fester out of control.
- It appears to me that some of us are asking the same questions and seeking the same definitions such as “What makes one a friend?” and “What type of D/s relationships are you wanting to have?” As Empress Devine suggested, “There are different kinds of friends and different gradations within relationships.”
I am a relationship based and not a play-based Dominant. I can Top anyone that desires to be toped but to be someone’s Dominant means something entirely different to me. So my answer comes from that perspective.
I personally have separate expectations from a friend than I do a submissive. To quote Empress Devine,” I want My friends to tell Me like it is. However, while I want My submissive to be able to be open, I expect him/her to remain in her/his place. I expect a level of subservience. After all, she/he is in service to Me. And perhaps, for example, sharing personal info (and other things friends share) is just inappropriate to the D/s relationship.” I totally agree with this statement.
But it seems a running feeling in this thread is that “friendship” means sharing vanilla interests over a cup of coffee (as Miss Silver put it). I agree with Eva in that “No one feels Domme or sub 24 hours out of the day, and it is a real pleasure when you have other things to share with your sub besides D/s. Being able to converse, laugh, and support each other in a friendly way makes both parties feel much more cared about and secure, which in my mind, creates a great environment for a deeper and stronger D/s relationship.” However, that doesn’t mean that while engaging in vanilla interests, there can’t be a D/s overtone to help the submissive learn, know, and feel their place. It is my feeling this is where BDSM provides the tools to the dominant. I keep my sub sitting on the floor while we have coffee or he wears (or doesn’t wear) certain clothing. So while we might be engaging in “vanilla” activities such as discussing current events, the relationship continues to have D/s overtones. He can speak freely but when I say, “I need another cup of coffee.” I don’t get some smart ass remark that I might get from a “Friend” like “Boy, you sure went through that one fast. I just sat down.” Likewise I wouldn’t expect my “friend” to say “Yes, Princess”. (Actually I think a lot of my friends would say that. Lol)
Even Scripps agrees, “I fear that I often get too familiar with a Domme in that I do see them in more of a friend’s capacity. I then have trouble disassociating that feeling with them, and being able to really serve them.”
I have had this happen to me a way too many times when I would attempt to make friendships and “move” them into a D/s direction.
I had a sub I was “getting to know” and I would consider us “friends”. In the early stages of our relationship, she went out and bought a brand new vehicle. She was 25, going to school, working two part-time jobs and her car broke down. I explained to her as her “friend” that purchasing a NEW car at this point in her life was not the best idea. Not knowing if/when she might find a job once she graduated, it would put a financial strain on her attempting to make the car and insurance payment on her current salary. However, she bought the car anyway and as her “friend” I felt I should support her decision and tell her what a nice car she had. A few months later I was attempting to move the relationship more into the D/s realm and when I asked her questions about our relationship I got the status quo answer, “I don’t know”. At one point, she had a really bad day and went out and got a puppy. The girl lived at home with her parents who already had two dogs (the type that jump and bark when you walk through the door due to the fact no one ever trained them) and two cats. She worked two jobs, still going to school, and I wasn’t seeing her but about once a week if I was really lucky. She had just been diagnosed with Fibromalysia. She did not NEED a puppy. This poor puppy was going to suffer the rest of its LIFE because she had ONE bad day and a puppy would cheer her up at that moment. So I gave her an ultimatum that she could have me or the puppy.
I could never and would never give a FRIEND an ultimatum like that. I advise and support my friends but I don’t make decisions for them. My friends “hang out” with me. My submissives “serve” me.
In short, “No, You can’t be someone’s Friend and their Domme.” You are right Empress Devine, “being friends does compromise something beautiful in D/s, something seemingly more concrete: structure”.
It totally proves to confuse a submissive when you move from a “friends” status to a “D/s” status. That which is acceptable as a friend is not acceptable as a submissive. This does not mean there is a lack of feeling, intimacy, vanilla interests, joking around, or even romance. You just have to set up D/s expectations and limits from the start and not cross those boundaries or you will find you can’t keep the boundaries straight yourself. If you don’t know the boundaries then how could you expect a submissive to?
- A friend, for example (just as you put so well) may not feel like doing such and such thing you ask, but your submissive is required to do it anyway (and I want My submissive to like it if it pleases Me), but now I find the D/s and friendship (It’s not a long term deep friendship, but a newly developing one (as is the D/s aspect), but I find My sub beginning to lean away from his subordinate position more and more expecting ‘entitlements’ that one would as a friend, an equal.
So now I am in a quandary. I feel I must implement more defining boundaries, a way to better train him, but that’s the issue: boundaries and when things get blurry and then progress that way, it gets harder.
It feels like a slow, undermining landslide at this point.
Another huge issue is the long-distance thing (and I may start a whole other discussion question just on this topic because it’s quite challenging!), so the boundaries and ‘on and off’ time that some have alluded to here are even trickier seemingly.
- It is difficult to establish what is friendship and what is D/s and as I was cleaning my car out with a previous sub once he actually said to me, “I feel like I am just a friend helping you clean out your car than a sub to you.” I knew the relationship was in trouble then. It seems that the submissives I deal with at least never understand that while you are standing there washing the dishes with them or in this case, cleaning out your car, that you are in all actuality TRAINING them by SHOWING them how it is you like things done. They rarely see these experiences as Training but more like “hanging out”. Again I would recommend using the tools that BDSM provides whether it be speech restrictions or eye contact or whatever their fetish might be (I used to anally plug a submissive while he cleaned my bathroom–he was an anal slut so he got something for his trouble and I got my bathroom clean. Another sub I dressed in a maid outfit to clean my bathroom). You don’t have to have them do every little chore with a BDSM overtone such as washing the dishes but when you do see things “slipping a little” (usually in the form of some smart ass “bratty” lip service) that is the time to jump in and reestablish those boundaries. Unfortunately, I usually realize it a little too late. I let things slide here and there and then one day I realize that they do view themselves as equals and act like they are actually doing me some sort of favor by fetching my coffee. You are exactly right in that it is my experience as well that they feel there is some sense of entitlement after a while.
I have read the other posts on this thread and while it seems that many have had friendships that turn D/s or that ARE D/s, this has never happened for me and I end up losing both a friend and a potentially good submissive.
- I personally have separate expectations from a friend than I do a submissive. To quote Empress Devine,” I want My friends to tell Me like it is. However, while I want My submissive to be able to be open, I expect him/her to remain in her/his place. I expect a level of subservience. After all, she/he is in service to Me. And perhaps, for example, sharing personal info (and other things friends share) is just inappropriate to the D/s relationship.” I totally agree with this statement.
I agree. You have to be careful with this one. I mean think of it from the sub/slaves perspective: would you want your Dom/me to treat you like a high school buddy, or treat you like a submissive? Why would a sub hand over their gift of control if you are equals?
- I prefer to be good friends with my submissives. It enhances the dynamic for me and for them. I prefer them to “tell it like it is”, and wouldn’t view that as stepping out of their role. I view that as being honest and a good communicator.
Further, I don’t have a problem with my submissive knowing I’m a flawed human, just like everyone else. To try to maintain a facade of perfection seems like a waste of time to me. I find it being honest about my flaws or mistakes, and taking responsibility for them builds trust in a relationship. And it builds respect.
I guess I don’t see anything about the types of things I desire in a friend being an impediment to that friend also being in my control, tied up and tortured. On the contrary, I think being friends builds the trust and safety necessary for submissives to really let go of their control.
- My best [male] friend became My slave about 4 years ago. We had been best friends since 1992. We always remained very close over the years yet the relationship was always platonic, sans an occasional birthday or holiday peck and many hugs. Although many of our friends and relatives couldn’t believe it was possible for a man and woman to be so close without any more serious physical contact or sex involved, the very truth is that’s the way things remained up to that point when he became my slave (or pet as he was referred to). At the time I had been contemplating going professional as I had been approached by quite a few submissives. My pet helped and supported me in all aspects of preparing for such a serious undertaking, including establishing a potential client base and being the sole builder of an elaborate dungeon to practice My craft. I used him to practice all aspects of being a ProDomme, including bondage and corporal punishments, he performed foot worship, massage and pampering, as well as all house chores, cooking and cleaning for Me. The line was drawn at c.b.t. and nipple torture, with no sex whatsoever incorporated into the relationship.
This lasted for about 6 months until we both arrived where we felt a deeper connection and finally became exclusive; and within 16 months we were married and have been happy ever since.
The bottom line is that being friends and sharing a successful Mistress/slave relationship can work. And if the relationship is strong enough, it can only deepen and perhaps lead to something better than both parties expected.
- I understand your quandary and I used to share it. Then, 6 months ago I met my soul mate slave and everything has fallen into place. We met through a different BDSM website and it was thunder strikes for both of us. We immediately began to get to know each other, to become friends….to explore our lives and thought processes and desires to see how well we matched. After our 1st play session, there was no doubt this boy could be all that I had been searching for. We spent hours on the phone texting each other because we live an hour & half away, this is how we stayed connected until the times we could be together on the weekends. We shared everything about each other because we wanted no secrets or barriers between us. I wanted a mate that I can feel equal to intellectuality, to be able to ask his advice and receive input that would assist me in making decisions, I wanted someone who could understand me as a person and then value me as his Femdom. I want him to feel free to come to me with his innermost thoughts and fears, knowing that I am open to having a discussion with him on every aspect of his life and that I am concerned and active in all aspects of his life. This type of closeness can not be achieved if I held back from him or forbade him to open up to me. When we were first together, it was obvious I would be the person in charge since I introduced myself as Femdom to him & he to me as slave…..so there was no power struggle, we came into this relationship both understanding the basic functions and responsibilities of the roles we both take in life. It was then my responsibility to outline to him how I expected him to behave and where training comes in to play. This is where the women in charge must take control and outline expected behavior – he understands that regardless of any situation he will be subservient to me because these are our roles….if he does not perform in the expected way there are consequences for his behavior. I can not stress consistency….or roles will be confused. I am moving into his house this weekend where we will begin our 24/7 life together. I have put together a contract which outlines much behavior, rules, and the like so that again, we are both on the same page and understand what is expected. We are friends, lovers, slave & Owner, soul mates, all two people can be to one another…. I share all of this with you in the hopes that when you meet your true partner all questions will be answered and issues will fall into place for you as they have for me. Good Luck in finding that special submissive/slave that makes the relationship a joy & not a lot of work!!
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